Mistaking kindness for weakness

[SamL]

I've been in the 'lifestyle' for many years – approximately thirty-five so yeah, I'm old. Not older than water, but I believe I did pour the first glass... anywho, I digress. It hasn't all been DDlg, I've participated in various types of power exchanges and just about every aspect of BDSM (within the role of 'top'). And in every one of these relationships as well as throughout the lifestyle community(s), I've run into a recurring problem area. I'm curious if anyone can relate from either side of the equation.

 

My spirituality is paramount to me. I suppose many might say that, so let me offer some perspective. I didn't come from a religious family. As a rule, we saw the inside of a church maybe twice a year. I had just turned twelve years old, when I cracked the Bible. By thirteen, I had read it twice and filled two, five subject notebooks with notes. That year I looked up churches in the area and lo and behold, found out there were these things called 'denominations' and even (gasp) other religions. So I took my newfound Bible-type knowledge and road my bike to thirty-seven different churches that year, looking for the right one. I'll spare you the next few years but at seventeen I hooked up with a traveling evangelist for nine months throughout the Southwestern United States, learning what I could. I spent another nine months in a Buddhist monastery in Asia, four months in Africa studying the Muslim religion, Huna from Hawaii, I immersed myself in my own Native traditions and so forth and so on until recently when I finished my second book, this one a spiritual fantasy for young adults.. So that's what I mean when I say that my spirituality is paramount to me.

 

Spirituality for me has just translated into being kind every word, every step, every moment. Though we all know the words and have may have even quoted them once or twice ourselves, people apparently have a lot of trouble not mistaking kindness for weakness. Whether they knew this about themselves or not, every submissive I've worked with (I've trained subs that weren't mine so the number is actually much larger than the number of relationships I've had) has had a problem not getting yelled at, at least sometimes. Anticipating this after a while, when she began acting out I increased the amount of time I spent with her and the number of activities we did – giving her positive attention. A few of the more self-aware ones were surprised, along with me, to discover that they needed the negative attention at least sometimes.

 

A corollary, but ultimately a different issue all together, though often connected...is anger. Of course, anger can manifest itself as the negative attention mentioned above, but it doesn't have to be. A lack of anger on my part has left many a girl absolutely stark raving insecure. i.e. New sub (baby-girl, slave, etc.) with special issues is at a restaurant with me and with mock surreptitiousness, keeps making eyes at a guy across the way. I know she's doing it. I know she's only pretending to hide it. I know she wants me to catch her and she wants to be punished – and she will be because bad girls don't get spankings in my house. But I don't get angry...pretty much ever. A lot of girls, whether they are channeling their family of origin stuff or the last seven boyfriends because her guy-picker is broke as f@#$...they figure that I can't possibly care about them if I am not at least raising my voice after what they did.

 

Anyway, there's more, but that's enough... anyone else experience anything like this?

 

[Nymph]

Ahh, yes I know exactly what you mean! I have talked (and dated) guys who are a bit like you and they have experienced that too. It sucks when you are not in the same channel, but when you find a girl who gets you is wonderful!

 

Personally I much prefer someone who can keep their cool and will not yell at me, someone strict that will make me shiver with a disapproving glance. I am into degradation to certain extent, but yelling is not my cup of tea. I much rather a silly nickname and being treated like a pet for example, which to me is degrading but also loving and playful or you can get passionate and call me names and man handle me in bed and that is cool too... because it's passion, not anger... it makes no difference to me, it's still making love if you are enjoying yourself with the one that you love, props and all

 

I did came across a couple of guys who seemed very confused by the fact that I wouldn't get scared when they were angry. It made them upset and frustrated that they didn't get much of a response from me... here is the deal, I respond to love, if you are an angry poopy pants then it's your problem and I will tolerate you at most out of respect but in my eyes you become less of a dom each time it happens. Someone who needs to feel feared doesn't really know how to take control in my eyes, hence I lose respect and eventually interest. Now don't get me wrong, I am all for a bit of funishment now and then but that is different.

 

Of course to each their own! for the record I do come from a very stable family and I had a very happy childhood. Not religious or spiritual, just live and let live.

 

The biggest punishment ever for me is being ignored and being treated in a cold way though, nothing stings as bad as that. Daddy sometimes is very stressed and gets in a bit of a sadist mood, at first things didn't go too well because he kept trying to find excuses to punish me... but I am a very good girl and when I noticed his bad moods I would try even harder to be super good >_< but I would feel hurt because my efforts always backfired and I was very confused.

 

Until one day he talked to me about it and I was baffled! then I informed him on the spot that he can use me whenever he wants! as long as I know it's not a punishment but something he needs I will be happy to please. So now when he needs it, he gets it and when it's all done we both feel great :3

[baby_k]

This is interesting and probably true in lot of cases.

 

 

As I have nothing smart to say, I'll just go into my personal view point in the matter

 

So, personally I have difficult time dealing with anger or disapointment towards me, and therefore like the stable calm personality in my partner. But I need to see the other person getting angry as otherwise I won't feel safe with them for I'm not sure what happens when they get really pissed off. As everybody imo will get mad at some point in life, even if it takes 20 years.

 

I would also worry that they bottle up emotions and specially anger if they don't get mad. Meaning they will explode at some point ( or just grow bitter, meaning  that the rel ends randomly from my point of view or I will be targeted with random negativity that would totally freak me out ). This leads to groving anxiety which I might not even be able to pin point where it comes.

 

One experience I also had with one dude, was that he seemed to lack both positive and negative emotions. Or he had some but mainly.... nothing seemed to really move him. There was lot of other stuff too but that was one aspect which made me insecure as I did not seem to matter to him that much. Like I was nice part of his life but nothing more. So, people with sort of luke warm emotions scare me also as I want to feel important and therefore feel safe as I know they don't just decide one sunny afternoon that "nah, I want something else, moving on".

[neworder]

You are basically describing a pushover who lets his woman walk all over him, and she doesn't like doing that.

 

A cat can play gently with a mouse, but only a foolish mouse doesn't realize it's can be a snack in a split second. Don't be that cat that won't eat a yummy furry mouse.

 

I think an vanilla example of kindness without it being a sign of weakness, is being in control. Strings. For instance, it's a nice weekend day and I want to go to the lake. Barely "I'm going..." comes out of my mouth before she interrupts with "Let's go to the lake!"  My response would be to do what I wanted to do, but add strings. I add: "OK. When we get back, you can mow the lawn." 

 

And while you were having this conversation, you did put her over your lap and swatted her, uttering only "interruption"...right?

[SamL]

You are basically describing a pushover who lets his woman walk all over him, and she doesn't like doing that.

 

A cat can play gently with a mouse, but only a foolish mouse doesn't realize it's can be a snack in a split second. Don't be that cat that won't eat a yummy furry mouse.

 

I think an vanilla example of kindness without it being a sign of weakness, is being in control. Strings. For instance, it's a nice weekend day and I want to go to the lake. Barely "I'm going..." comes out of my mouth before she interrupts with "Let's go to the lake!"  My response would be to do what I wanted to do, but add strings. I add: "OK. When we get back, you can mow the lawn." 

 

And while you were having this conversation, you did put her over your lap and swatted her, uttering only "interruption"...right?

 

I described a situation in which a new sub with special issues acted out.  There is no one correct way to deal with all subs.  The best course of action always takes the individual into account.  I didn't say that there weren't consequences, I said that I didn't get angry.  It has been my experience that anger is a result of fear.  It has also been my observation that dominants who control through anger do not have healthy relationships that last.  Without fear, anger doesn't exist - her behavior didn't threaten me in any way so there's no cause to be angry.  Consequences notwithstanding, I study a new sub - whether she is new to me or new to the lifestyle.  Until I know her at least as well as she knows herself, I'm not going to choose a punishment that might learn later is counter-productive or harmful to her.  

 

Anyway, it is my belief that if I can't drop you to your knees with a look, you're not mine anyway.  True strength doesn't need bravado.  In my world, love is the collar.

[Guest]

I believe I understand where you are coming from with this. I've been told I'm understanding to a fault, perhaps this is the same as weakness. I tend not to get angry, if I do it is short lived. Maybe 5 mins and I try not to take it out on anyone. My anger is my emotion, it doesn't need to be felt (or feared) by others. My mother always tells me not to be a pushover and warns me that sometimes kindess is seen as weakness. As a caveat she says for messed up individuals that don't understand. This misunderstanding must be much harder for those that have this preconceived mould of what they think dominant & submissive behaviors should fit. I guess in a submissive's case kindness can be seen as a doormat or an easily manipulated person.

 

Personally, I do not want nor seek negative emotions. A person being angry scares me and makes me want to hide. And anyone displaying such anger I certainly don't want it turned on me. I do like pretend anger, when a person or Dom is trying to be serious, but you can see they are trying not to smile.

 

 

I was raised religiously, but never followed the command that I should judge. My spiritual belief is that every one has their own reality and I try to understand that from their point of view. In the end I could feel hurt, but I take it as a learning experience and hope that each of us (partners, family, friends, acquaintances) become stronger people from how vulnerable I'm willing to allow myself be in an attempt to understand them better. If that's weakness from their point of view *shrugs*.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Baby_squee

[baby_k]

I think a lot of this is about compatibility.

 

For me the "real sort" of pushover dude means that I don't feel safe and feel like I'm taking care of all and deciding everything ( which I dont like ).

The ones who try to show dominance 'just because' or because of wrong reasons ( imo wrong reasons! ) I would have lack of respect for as I see that as weakness and petty.

 

Then there are the ones who I see as truly dominant:

 

Calm behaviour that doesn't require unneeded stuff or have need to underline their domination. For me truly strong man can bend to my weird whims if those would make me happy and feeling cared. I see that sort of unselfisness and ability to see bigger picture as highly attractive and not fighting over unnecessary things as them being the bigger person.

 

He looks after me, "daddys" me, supports me, kneels in front of me to tie my shoe laces... He inspires me for submission with love and care, not with force. He needs to be able to be my safe harbour when needed, be calm in certain tough situations. Be kind and sweet as that works a lot better to me than being controlling or pushy. And all that is actually a lot to ask.

 

 

 

Other people would probably see "true domination" as something different ( like some really could need the anger, I guess ), so they would fit together better with different type of people. Or they interpret situations differently, so what I see petty they might see as being strong and assertive.

 

 

Edit: typos...

Edited November 2, 2018 by baby_k

[SamL]

baby_squee & baby_k, 

 

   Thank you both.  I've been mulling this post over, trying to determine if I communicated it poorly after being misunderstood and thought of a few ways to perhaps make things a little clearer - ways that you both touched on.

 

I spent nine months in a Buddhist monastery.  I got what I wanted from the experience and took it with me when I left...serenity.  Everyone in the world wants to be happy.  Some think money will bring them happiness, others think stuff, or success, sex, power...but really it all comes down to happiness.  So, it is my most valuable possession.  I will be double-dog damned if I am going to let ANYONE take my most valuable and prized possession.  So I stay happy and I wonder why people think that happiness is something they can steal from others instead of cultivating in themselves, you know?  Anywho...baby_k when you talked about daddy bending down and tying your shoelaces...I laughed.  I laughed because today, at Walmart, a middle-aged guy with his hands full got tripped up by his undone shoelaces.  I said, "Let me get that for you," bent down and tied his shoe for him.  Not a lot of people look at something like that and think 'dominate'.  I disagree.  I kneel to no one, unless it's to help them - and then I'll get to my knees faster than a baby can lose her pacifier.  

[baby_k]

I don't think it was poorly communicated but the topic is be pretty wide and there are many takes on it because people can see those things so differently.

 

And I admit trying to avoid one part of this convo as it might insult some people:

sometimes SOME people have had in someways a bit nasty past. I don't mean that it needs anything extreme, just that in their home people yelled for example. Then they have normalised that sort of communication. And when they have partner who does not yell in arguments, they may sort of panic because it is really foreign to them. They may feel like the other person doesn't care of the topic ( and therefore them or that the other one just wants to annoy them for no reason), the other person mocks them, they don't communicate..... All those ideas are hopefully wrong but they really can feel that way when facing healthier communication methods.

 

So, with showing anger or actually being angry: people may have internalised that it is needed to show caring and love (== other one is jealous for example and it is shown like that And that only jealousy means they have any worth even obviously it isn't the case ), or they really think that to be dominant is to shout or never give in even for a millimeter, always put the dominants needs first....

 

How I see the need of ager: it is sort of toxic and unnecessary ( I also explained in my first post why I still would need it.....). But it is just my view. Someone else may not see it that bad but even good for the relationship. And the difference of the views probably can be based already in our childhood .

 

Of course there is possibility that your issue is not "no anger" but lack of other ways of showing dominance and control. But at least I did not get that from what you wrote.

 

Umm, what I try to say: people have different definations of things, sometimes people can have really twisted ideas ( like being hit in relationship is okay/normal if there is fight ) or they have really different needs.

 

Like there is littles who just needs tons of support because they are really timid and would never dare to challenge their daddy even if it would be needed sometimes. And there can be super "bratty" littles who may need to have something really different to calm down the panic of being uncared or feeling unloved which can come out with seriously toxic ways or be out of porpotions ( being bratty is not issue but if there is severe underlying causes for some toxic behaviour, those should be addressed imo and those issues should not be just wiped off from the table with calling it "being bratty" ).

 

Edit: left out the important point:
I think that sort of need for anger is...like a fault in person and would be best if they could either learn out from it ( -> they need to understand this first, so requires lot of discussions ) because it is not most likely helping them to gain healthy rels.
How to deal with that... I have no idea except conversations and pointing out them their wn behaviour. But that is massive change in ones thinking and FEELINGS. So, not sure how easily it would happen. Unfortunately might be that all you can do is to point it out for them, they will move on to some other dude as they feel unsatisfied in your rel but then with time they may start to see what you meant and actually make the change. But maybe I'm cynical.....

Edited November 3, 2018 by baby_k

[LittleGoddess]

Can't you be a little pretend angry? It's hot. I adore getting scolded. When my daddy gets angry, or pretend angry, his voice goes real low as he scolds me and it sends delicious tingles of fear straight through my core. We don't yell here because I get physical pain from loud noise.

[SamL]

Can't you be a little pretend angry? It's hot. I adore getting scolded. When my daddy gets angry, or pretend angry, his voice goes real low as he scolds me and it sends delicious tingles of fear straight through my core. We don't yell here because I get physical pain from loud noise.

 

Oh without a doubt.  My daughter called it my daddy voice when she was little.  And there were times that I did raise my voice or even yell, though they were few and far between.  Those times were exactly that - pretending to be angry.  I did it so infrequently that it always impressed upon her the seriousness of the offense as well as improve the chances she would remember. i.e. DON'T YOU EVER RUN OUT INTO THE STREET AGAIN!"  I wasn't angry - I mean, she was four years old, she was playing and excited.  I had positioned myself so that I could catch her before she got hit if she did run out and so she never was in any danger, but I wanted to make her think that she was.  

[ReflectionsOfHorror]

I, too, have a Buddhist belief system and strive to walk in kindness. I have 100% encountered this exact issue. I have been in the bdsm community almost 10 years. I would rather express disappointment rather than anger and focus on my sub/little's growth.